Please use this section of the website to share your thoughts on the rankings and the project as a whole.

172 replies on “Feedback”

Hi Springs, when is there likely to be a TBRB decision on Fury’s retirement? He’s held steadfast and doesn’t appear to be seeking any fights. If he does fight, it seems incredibly likely it would only be to be drawn out of retirement to face the winner of August’s rematch.

Logically, it seems that Usyk v Joshua should be for the title. They’re a clear remaining 1 v 2.

I’ll offer another perspective. TBRB made the call to remove Klitschko from the rankings for much less than Fury has said (in fact he said he was trying to make fights – albeit he wasn’t a champion so different standards may apply). That decision was significant and changed the destiny of the lineal title – instead of currently residing with Usyk, it is with a probably retired Fury.

This seems a chance to, if not ‘right’ that, to at least bring it full circle with similar justification.

Two thoughts:

Has CP Freshmart (the convenience store chain) ever stated whether they’d allow their two sponsored fighters to face each other (guaranteed loss for one fighter carrying their name)?

Is the board more terrified of or excited for the rankings chaos that will ensue from Garcia-Davis at 140?

Now this would be interesting. Potential championship matches for more vacancies are being negotiated: Edwards vs. Martinez in October, and Spence vs. Crawford in November.

This year seems to be the year with the most championship changes.

Hello Rick, your question regarding women’s boxing rankings and, for that matter, MMA rankings- has been asked numerous times. We’re at our limits now and expanding beyond what we’re already doing is out of the question for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that not all of the members watch women’s boxing (or MMA) and that this is all-volunteer –few of us have extra-time on our hands.

Thanks for the reply Springs. I would not have considered rankings for MMA since your mission statement specifies boxing. However, women’s boxing is probably the best it’s ever been, and ranking them is just as important as the men. TBRB’s mission statement doesn’t specify the definitive rankings for men’s boxing, just boxing in general. Boxers in all divisions should be ranked regardless of gender. Just look at the Katie Taylor vs Amanda Serrano fight. That wasn’t just a great women’s fight, that was a great fight full stop. Hopefully in the future, the 50 or so volunteers will come around on this issue.

Hi, is there goona be an official policy where if a champ “retires” they are given a certain amount of time to change their mind?

E.g. After Pacquaio “retired” after beating Bradley, the title was immediately vacated but he was back in the ring later in the same year. Had he been given the same amount of time Fury has, Crawford would currently be champion. However had Fury been taken at his word then Joshua and Usyk should be for the title.

Obviously I know there was no reason not to believe Pacquaio, and every reason not to believe Fury, but taking one at their word and one not seems a little murky.

It is murky though you correctly stated why we did what we did with Pacquiao and not with Fury (keeping in mind that he has yet to give up his WBS belt or turn his license into the BBB of C). There’s no answer easy here. Fury is playing games and it’s unfortunate because there’s a #1 vs. #2 coming up. We’re leaving things as is for now but will revisit in a month, as Usyk-Joshua draws near.

What if Fury reiterates that he’s retired and vacate his WBC belt and surrender the license, minutes or even hours after Usyk vs. Joshua 2?

Or Fury vacates the WBC belt and surrender the license without reiterating his retirement, before the Usyk vs. Joshua 2 card begins, only for him to retract and say that he’s still fighting minutes before the official winner of Usyk vs. Joshua 2 is announced?

Or same situation as the aforementioned. But with Fury saying that the comeback is just a prank a week after.

Sounds ridiculous but it’s Fury we’re talking about.

As stated, Bruce, we’ll look at every possible scenario and make the best decision we can. We have some good minds involved on the board. I can tell you that we don’t make “appointments” of any kind and that includes retroactive ones like those you bring up. We make the best decision we can and then live with it. No waffling here. We leave the waffling to the wafflers and boxing has too many of those already.

Hi,

For the Championship bouts do they need to be scheduled for 12 rounds?

For example, lets say Rigondeaux can only get cleared by a commission that just hand licensing out to anybody (ala Danny Williams), he returns in a 6 rounder at super bantam against some club level fighter and losses. Would the said club fighter then become champion? I feel it would completely devalue a title if its getting passed about between bums in some forgotten corner of the world.

Also if a fighter who fails to make weight defeats a champion, would the champion retain his title?

Hello Sam,

You have an interesting scenario with Rigondeaux. We are on record (somewhere) as stating that a championship bout has to be recognized as such by both fighters. A 6-rounder would not be recognized as such. As to a challenger who fails to make weight, he cannot take a divisional crown -because there are weight divisions for a reason- and that’s how it’s been historically.

What if the following weird scenario happens:
-Rigo announces a comeback fight and fight an unknown guy with a horrible record in a 12 rounder
-Fight is in a 120-pound catchweight
-Rigo states that he’s still the “lineal champion” at 122
-They are both overweight at 120.5 and 121
-The unknown guy beats Rigo

And then a week after is Fulton vs. Akhmadaliev.

How would TBRB handle the situation?

Hi TBRB,
I was wondering what your thoughts are with regards to Tyson Fury’s ‘retirement’. It has been a couple of months now and Fury has pretty much stuck to his ‘guns’.

With the #1 and #2 contenders (Usyk and AJ) fighting in August, I was wondering whether this fight should crown a new World Heavyweight Champion? It will be 4 months since Fury said he was ‘done’ with boxing, and surely Fury shouldn’t be allowed to hold the true Championship hostage. He is either retired or he isn’t. If he is retired, the Championship should be vacated and fought for between the #1 and #2 contenders.

I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Regards,

Anthony

We’re monitoring it closely. It’s not an easy call, as you know, because Fury is -and seems to enjoy- being purposefully confusing. The fact that he has not given up his WBS belt contradicts what he has been insisting. We have two options as I see them, at least:
1. He has announced, repeatedly, that he is retired. That’s official enough to take him at his word and declare the heavyweight throne open.
2. We wait until he moves on his words –that is, gives back his WBS belt. Until then, he’s the champ. A game-playing champ, but the rightful and singular champ nonetheless.

When the #1 vs. #2 gets closer, we’ll zero in on the critical question as to whether to recognize the winner as Fury’s successor. No need to answer it now as a lot can change between now and August.

Hi Springs, many thanks for your well thought out and written response. It shows very clear possible ways to proceed when required.

Regards,

Anthony

Good. Congratulations on this project, boxing needed something like this, but I don’t understand why Artur Beterbiev is number 1 in light heavyweight. What has he done to be?

Thank you Pavoni. Beterbiev isn’t ranked #1, he’s the divisional champion. He beat Gvozdyk who beat Stevenson who beat Dawson who beat Hopkins who beat Pascal who was ranked with Dawson at #1 and #2 when they fought in 2010. See the SUCCESSION tab for details.

Looking forward to Crawford vs. Spence, potentially the 12th reigning champion. I wonder how would this match affect the P4P ranks.

By the way, since Fury is insisting that he’s retired, how would Usyk vs. Joshua 2 affect the throne?

Let’s hope the winner of Martinez vs. Arroyo fights Edwards this year. Also Teraji vs. Kyoguchi.

Update: Fury will return to the ring to defend title later this year. I think this is a good news as to avoid confusion on the Heavyweight throne.

Kudos to Inoue to winning the real World Bantamweight Title and becoming #1 Pound-for pound in the process. I concur 100% with his placement at #1 overall.

Was Pulev considered to reenter following his recent win over Jerry Forrest who number 10 Michael Hunter failed to beat in his last fight (and was very lucky not to lose).

Pulev is someone who’s best days are obviously behind him but think he has a better overall resume than the bottom 3. And has arguably more comfortable wins against fringe contenders like Chisora and Hughie Fury than other guys currently in the top 10

Hi, big supporter of your project, I am fed up with the sanctioning bodies. I think this reply box should be moved to the top of the page because as comments accumulate it will get progressively lower down the page. Also, I think your welterweight rankings show an error at the top and should read “since 4/2016 when Floyd Mayweather retired” instead of Manny Pacquiao.

Daniel, Good point about the placement of the replies. I will contact Tech. Also, the welterweight rankings’ last champion is correct. Pacquiao and Bradley were ranked #1 and #2 when they fought in April 2016.

Shouldnt Loma be the no. 1 contender at lightweight Springs? I don’t think Teo will fight at 135 again, and loma is more deserving than kambo, having come back with 2 good wins since his defeat?

Several members asked the same thing. When he defeated Krasniqi via a split decision back in October, Krasniqi was #9. Boesel thus entered in at #10, and then it looks he floated up due to attrition. He has been voted out, however, based on his loss to Ramirez.

Brian Castano is listed as ranked #3 in your “Upcoming Bouts” tab. In reality, he is ranked #2 which would make his bout with #1 Charlo a title fight. Correct?

Assuming there would be winners on the upcoming championship fights (130, 154, 118, potentially 200+ successor as well), we will probably have the time this year wherein more than half of the 17 divisions have each own champions at the same time. Then there’s the potential fights at 112 and 147 as well. This year could be historic. Though I’m sure it will be reduced again after a few days or months the last of them wins before this year ends.

Kudos to all those Top 2 contenders who will fight each other.

I was surprised there was no mention of Saturday’s 130 lb title fight in this week’s update. That should be a good one!

The one responsible on updating the front page probably forgot? It’s in the front page now, kinda too late but it’s always better than never.

More importantly, there’s a champion now. In 2 weeks there’s another one to add.

Hey TBRB team! As a younger boxing fan and just a fan of your writing I really truly appreciate your work for the sport.

With that being said, and of course this is is just an idea, when could we expect a potential expansion into women’s boxing? This is after what may have been a classic bout just recently between Amanda Serrano and Katie Taylor.

Just curious really and all the best

Hello Brodin, that question -regarding women’s boxing rankings and MMA rankings- has been asked numerous times. We’re at our limits now and expanding beyond what we’re already doing is out of the question for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that this is all-volunteers and only a very few are retirees with extra time on their hands. That’s the way the bell rings! (?)

And the big question… how long will Fury need to claim he’s retired before it will be accepted? A month? 18 months?

If he’s retired then there’s a 1 v 2 fight coming up in July!

They just need a firm statement, no buts nor ifs, not even maybe. Even a tweet would do just like the last time, even if he retracts it in a few seconds, as long as it’s unconditional.

Thanks for what you do, TBRB! You’re a breath of fresh air in a too often foul-aired sport.

This is probably against your current rules, but if Fury doesn’t schedule a fight before Usyk-Joshua II, and then announces his retirement *after* they fight, I think you should name the winner the new champ (if you decide against this, we should still recognize your champion status designation as definitive; I would just disagree with your decision/rule)

Keep up the great work

Thank you Solomon, for the wisdom you express! The chairs and I will be discussing Fury and the heavyweight throne later this morning. Given what he has said and confirmed already, I think it would be goofy if we didn’t recognize Usyk-Joshua II as his successor if nothing changes between now and then …

Interesting call on Whyte. Drops below the likes of Parker (who he beat) and Joyce.

Is that fair considering all he did was lose to the number 1, which was entirely expected.

You can talk about the performance, but surely Fury had some input into how Whyte performed.

Would be interested to understand the thinking behind him dropping so low, particularly in relation to Parker.

Well, different members had different reasons, but one of the more consistent reasons expressed was, as you pointed out, how poor that performance was. Fury’s neutralizing power is one thing but Whyte did not even seem to be trying. As for the loss to Parker, that was 4 years ago and one pattern I’ve detected is that members are less apt to factor such things in after a couple of years, especially given the wins -or consistent winning- since.

That is a little unfair on Whyte. He was fighting Fury who just dominates when he is on his A game. Whyte probably WAS trying… That said I think the (seemingly) rejuvenated and more aggressive Parker deserves to be above him. He would beat Whyte in a rematch. And Joyce certainly would.

Aggression is hard to judge. Your level of aggression can be determined by the attributes of the fighter in front of you.

It’s easier to be aggressive against Chisora than Fury. That’s straight forward isn’t it? Chisora isn’t banging you with jabs before you can even get in range.

Whyte V Parker would still be close. I remain a fan of Parker though and think he looked improved against Chisora.

Why does Gervonta Davis appear in two weight divisions while Canelo is not in the light heavyweight list?

Canelo has only had one foray into the division, and that was back in 2019. He was ranked #3 after defeating Kovalev, but was eventually removed due to inactivity. If he defeats Bivol, he’ll be ranked there once again –and high.

Based on the Record, KO wins ratio, Nationality and outcome of the last fight the name of the fighter ranked as No. 7 between Welterweights should be Eimantas Stanionis, not Radzhab Butaev. Could you please clarify that? Thanks.

Why was GGG vs Murata not mentioned in this week’s update, and why isn’t Murata back in the middleweight top 10? Are we to believe based on his performance that the likes of Felix Cash or Sergiy Derevyanchenko, who has lot 4 of his last 5, are better than Ryota Murata?

Hello J,

The update is for rankings changes; for the sake of brevity, we avoid a sport-wide synopsis. As to why Murata is not in the top 10, it’s pretty to tough to enter or re-enter the top-ten after a decisive loss. Murata was valiant, absolutely, but we consider a good loss (which can and has seen contenders enter the rankings or not move down in them) to be more than that. A good loss usually means a close fight.

But Murata, by your own admission leading up to the fight, was only unranked in the first place due to inactivity. I think it strains credibility to have a top 10 without Murata in it. Would any member of the voting panel actually pick Felix Cash, Maciej Sulecki, or Sergiy Derevyanchenko to beat Murata if they were to fight in the second half of the year? Derevyanchenko has lost four of five and has taken a progressively worse beating each time out.

Fair points, but remember, these aren’t hypothetical H2H rankings. They’re based on what is done and what is not done. One of the patterns noted over time here is that fighters who are KO’d do not always remain in the rankings, and it’s certainly no a way to return into the top ten.

Hi I was reading this weeks rankings and after watching the Warrington vs Martinez 2 fight, I was curious as to why the board felt Warrington should have been disqualified? Other than the occasional head clashes I didn’t see any reason for a disqualification
Thank you
Tom

You seem to have taken a bit of a left turn in your latest update.

You’ve decided that Warrington should have been Disqualified and allowed that to impact your rankings. If the eye injury had been worse in the first 4 rounds it would have resulted in a no contest. But Kiko opted to carry on.

There was no real suggestion of anything but accidental head clashes. You can call Warrington reckless in the way he leads… but then that would apply to every fight he has. Why even rank him at all?

It’s an unusually subjective call this one, and one that puts TBRB in a slightly different role than where I had them.

Hello Ted,

Greetings Ted,

Well, “we” did not decide that Warrington should have been DQ’d. That was the opinion of a handful of members. Even if all 50 members of the board decided that Warrington should have been DQ’d, it would not have mattered because we are bound by the official decision unless the robbery clause is applied. The concern of those members -and many others- was that the head butt/s unfairly diminished Martinez, despite his fighting will to carry on, and it cast a shadow on the win. The chairs proposed that Warrington move up no less than 3 spots; that was not very supported by the majority.

Ancajas is leaving 115 according to his recent interview.

By the way, I’m aware of the Charter and whatnot, but can Rigondeaux hold onto the Jr. Featherweight Championship if he doesn’t schedule any fight within a year or at least until the third anniversary of his last defense on June? He seems to found a “loophole” in the Charter.

Jr. Lightweight rankings would be very interesting in the next few weeks. I wonder if Valdez can make it back to the championship ranks going into the Stevenson fight.

I wouldn’t say the Charter has a loophole for a Rigondeaux case; we have a failsafe. If a champion doesn’t defend over an extended amount of time and doesn’t retire or otherwise abdicate, the divisional championship is not held hostage –if #1 signs to fight #2, a successor can be crowned.

Valdez returns to the rankings this week. His 180-day suspension ended March 12 and the board has voted him at #2 due to Stevenson’s recent win. When Valdez was exited due to PED issues, he was #1.

Regards to you and yours, Bruce.

Thanks for clarifying!

Also, it’s nice to know that Valdez returned to the championship ranks. 2 vacant thrones are being contested in the next 2 months, another 1 being brewed. May these upcoming vacant championship fights end with a proper victor.

Another situation would be interesting. If Valdez vs. Stevenson would be materialized, would the winner be recognized as the new Jr. Lightweight champion? IIRC, this situation already happened before with Canelo vs. GGG 2. Valdez is in a similar position as Canelo was.

What is the length of suspension for Valdez? And what if his re-entry bout will be with the current #1 in the division, considering that before PED suspension he was #1 as well?

Hello Roarman ~ the length of Valdez’s suspension is 180-days from the date of his removal from the rankings. This was determined by the chairs and oversight with input from board members some months ago. Valdez will therefore return to the rankings on March 12. Whether he will return to #1 or end up behind the current #1 (Stevenson) is to be determined.

Why is Rigo still considered the 122 champion? I get that it’s because the lineage but he’s fighting at 118 in his last 2 fights, the last time he fought at 122 was 2 and a half years ago. Nothing particular against Rigo it’s just sticking with someone as the champion of a division when he long stopped being a factor in that division and competes elsewhere seems a bit removed from reality to me.

Other: If I know it right Danny Garcia will compete at 154 from now

Similarly, Gervonta Davis’ team announced he will compete at 135 going forward, vacated his belts at 130 in August and his 140 title as well, after his last fight. Considering this, shouldn’t he be only ranked at 135?

Hello, the Charter tab will answer your questions, or at least shed some light on them. In sum, Rigondeaux has not abdicated the championship he earned. We are, unlike almost everyone else except the “linealists,” reluctant to strip a champion of something he earned while those who are doing the stripping just sit around. We will, however, declare a divisional throne open given strict conditions. Now, Rigondeaux has not defended in more than 18-months, and it’s looking like abandonment. We have recourse that is just and fair: If #1 signs to fight #2 and Rigondeaux is still idling, we’d likely recognize the winner as his successor.

As to contenders declaring “intentions” -intentions are words, not action. This is boxing, a place where such declarations mean very little. We lean toward exiting a contender from an earned ranking -after- he fights in his new division.

Hello all , I check everyday to see the rankings we are still missing November & December. (Ok I see the updates) I hope all is well at TBRB!
You have put my faith back in the system & sport . You’re the only rankings and champions I acknowledge.
I do wish you would change your name to THE REAL WORLD CHAMPIONS because basically that’s what you are doing , cutting out the nonsense fragments , the corruption, the cancer that is the alphabets .
It would make it easy when spreading the word and explaining your concept to the more casual fan or younger audience .
TBRB is a bit of a mouth full & anything with trans in nowadays raises eyebrows unnecessary.
I prefer say this is the real world champion in that division…anyhow much love and hope to see December posted soon .
Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the work you’ve put in this year for us the fans benefit. Its really appreciated .

Ps Springs love your articles in Boxing News & your book on Harry Greb I’ve read recently..

We’re in out 10th year now and it’s a little late to change our name, don’t you think? Back in the summer of 2012, I suggested we call ourselves the Red-Light Rankings Board. As in let’s put a stop to all the wearisome nonsense that has me watching boxing broadcasts on mute. I also liked the not-so-subtle nod to Jimmy Cannon, and let’s face it –he was right. Boxing will always be the red-light district of sports.. Alas, I was the only one of the co-founders who liked that name.

(And thank you for the nod.)

I noticed that your Successions page is missing a few lower-weight divisions. I don’t believe we have had a legitimate World Champion in some of those divisions in a decade or more (e.g.; Bantamweight, Junior Lightweight) but for clarity’s sake, I would recommend that those divisions be addressed rather than omitted entirely.

Keith, rest assured we discussed that. We decided to only include those divisions where we “crowned” the legitimate champions since 2012; the reason for that is that the historians on the board would be unlikely to agree on those successions –it’d be a battle royal. That being said, if you look at the rankings themselves, you will see identified the last legitimate champion in all of the divisions where the championship is open.

Just want to know if a clear loss for Niyomtrong aka CP Freshmart against an unranked Paradero can potentially affect and elevate Pradabsri aka CP Freshmart vs. Moonsri aka Menayothin rematch into a championship?

I wondered because if I recall correctly when Pradabsri won, he wasn’t elevated into #1 spot right away because Niyomtrong has better recent resume.

I can’t predict how the board would vote, but if CP Freshmart looks terrible and loses against Paradero than yes, he could go down a more than 2 spots. Take a look at what happened this week at jr. bantamweight with Donnie Nietes after a draw against an unranked contender.

Really enjoy studying the transnational rankings but I have to ask how does John Ryder qualify as the fourth ranked super middleweight in the world? His two fights in the last two years were against 39 year old Mike Guy in a 10 rounder and an 8 rounder vs Joseph Jurko (8 and 4) at light heavy!

Mr. Skrimmers, thank you for the support. Ryder floated up because of attrition. In 2019, he was ranked #7, but with Canelo becoming champ and a few others ranked over Ryder moving out of the division for one reason or another, he floated up. Since he’s had two fights in a row out of the division, however, he may be exiting soon.

Hi, great website and certainly the ranking system the sport should apply. I have a couple of questions. How do you decide a lineal/divisional champion after it has been vacant for a while? Is this when and if #1 fights #2?

Also I see the welterweight division has been vacant since Pacquiao retired but he was beaten by Jeff Horn a couple of fights later. I know Jeff Horn is no top class fighter by any means but should the lineal championship not have been passed to him?

Hello Ryan,

Thank you! When a divisional championship is open due to abdication or retirement, a successor is crowned with the official winner of a #1 vs. #2 championship match. Note, once a champion retires as Pacquiao did, he relinquishes any claim on his divisional championship. We don’t keep the seat warm! Also note that we list the legitimate champions, not necessarily the “lineal” champions as even those who still think that’s a thing don’t agree on it means. Our standards are simplified, clear, and based solidly on common sense.

Man I hope Demetrius Andrade steps up one day, been a pro for almost 15 years, 33-0 or something, and best opposition is like Liam William and Sulecki.

Liam Williams’ record still reflecting as 22-2-1 (17). It should be updated. It made me wonder if the rest should be updated too. Do you guys still update every Tuesday?

Hi,

Where has the rankings archives gone? I managed to find it via google, but when I click on a date, it takes me to the home page?

In the Pound for Pound rankings it says Golovkin’s record is 38-1-1. In the rankings it says 41-1-1.

I guess not only did Canelo steal his two best wins, he took three more for good measure! 🙂

Going into the new year, Luis Ortiz’s best wins in the last 5 years will be Dave Allen or Chris Hammer, pretty weak. Has only beaten 1 top 10 fighter his whole career and that was 6 years ago. He seems to be eternally rated top 10 just for that.

Worry not, it’s highly unlikely in the meantime. Only WBC and IBA recognize a division in between Heavy and Cruiser. As we all know, TBRB doesn’t and will never recognize Alphabet orgs.

We’re just as lucky to recognize the “bridgework” class given all these 50-something retirees who keep coming back. No, we won’t be recognizing that abomination unless forced to by the sport-at-large. As for me, I’m always rooting for the small heavyweights to toppled the giants. Where have you gone, Mickey Walker?

It would be good to list those who has just dropped out of the top 10 lists (from previous week). Is that possible?

When are Gary Russell, Julian Williams and Wilfredo Mendez being dumped through inactivity. None have fought since before the pandemic

Greetings Samuel,
Gary Russell exited this week, Julian Williams fights in 2 weeks, and Mendez had a fight scheduled in August but his opponent (Carlos Buitrago) failed to make weight. We cut breaks for things like that. Apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

Now that it’s been about 28 months since Rigo last fought at 122 against Ceja, is it finally time to remove him from his lineal championship?

Remember, we don’t strip champions. That activity has a long and ignoble history. In July, Rigondeaux verified on a conference call his intention to eventually return to 122 and he still regards himself as “the best in the world at 122 pounds.” In August, he said “I’m the father of all the little chickens in that division. Everyone knows that’s my division until someone takes it from me. I’m the Lineal 122-pound champion.”

That will make it tough to abdicate him now. However, if a #1 vs. #2 is announced we may well have to move on him because his inactivity could be considered abdication -as in abandonment.

Love your work . Brilliant stuff ..just wondering..

Is it at all possible to see the rankings beyond the top 10 & champion ? I’d love to know the top 30 so I could see who’s knocking on the door on way up or down etc . You must have them ? Maybe you could post every 6 months or so your full rankings like boxing news does with British rankings.

Also, look at the upcoming bouts list. When they list a bout of unranked fighters, you know that one or both are on the TBRB’s radar.

Please could we have say the top 30 in each division, which would help greatly fans with less experience than the business pros when looking at fights

Ian, we wish we could say “Sure! No problem” but this thing is all-volunteer and all of us are pretty strapped for time because we have to eat and feed families too. I tip my hat to your (new?) devotion to the greatest of sports however.

Good ranking list,

Except I can not put Canelo Alvarez at #1. His two biggest fights against GGG he should have lost, and Canelo you could make a case for losing against Trout, (close) and Lara (close) The thing is Canelo is tough. But he has never had a dominant win over a prime fighter in his whole career. GGG should be above him. Juan Estrada should have lost against Gonzalez. (close) Ringo should not even be ranked after stinking out the joint against Casamero!

Speaking for myself, I was not a believer in Canelo at #1, P4P, when those GGG fights were more recent. But they’re history now –he’s had 6 good to very good wins since then. I can’t see much of an argument for anyone over him right now; and keep in mind, he’ll soon fight the next best super middleweight in the world to contest his second legitimate divisional championship.

Why has Gary Russell Jr not been removed for inactivity? Last fought the same day Artem Dalakian did

Stopping Dubois in the fight before was also far superior to anything Ortiz has done in years.

In fact, in the past 2 years Ortiz’s only win was over mediocre Alex Flores! That is terrible.

Joyce banging out Takam is another result better than any win Ortiz has in years and years. Again, your rating are letting the old Cuban hang on way too long in the top 5

No, the rankings are updated on Tuesdays after 3 days of input and/or debate among the membership. So far, it doesn’t look like Ortiz will be in the top 5 come tomorrow evening. Few members are arguing otherwise but it isn’t over yet. Either way, it’s important to understand that the question isn’t only whether such-and-such a contender “deserves to be ranked at #” but also who has earned a place over him in terms of achievements. Hunter? Parker? Wallin? So far, no. You offered one name, which is, as demonstrated, debatable. Now, Joyce just stopped a tough guy and a former contender in his 13th bout in the division. He has an excellent argument to move up from #7 to #5.

You should definitely try to bring BoxRec.com on board. Theirs is the “go to” site for boxing fans and reference point for anyone interested, yet they seem to be using their own bizarre ranking system when there is no need – They could use yours!

Boxrec’s ranking system works so that it can apply a ranking to every active boxer in the database, TBRB only offers rankings for a small fraction of that, it wouldn’t be the right match.

Yeah I get that, but they could still keep that for the purposes of ranking ALL boxers. They could also be persuaded to include TRBR lists as the “official” top ten in each division. BoxRec is a go to site for boxing enthusiasts as well as casuals who want to know more about boxers’ records etc. It would be great if they bought into this realistic ranking.

Hi Springs, I’d be interested to know how the TBRB see the current Fury situation?

Inactive for 18 months and with no date set. Is he that different to the Klitschko November 2016 decision we previously discussed on this page?

Fury is the rightful heavyweight champion of the world; he either has to officially retire or abdicate like he did then in order for there to be an open championship in the division. Barring that, we typically will reach out to his camp after 18-months without a defense, though Covid has caused us to extend the inactivity. If several more months go by and a #1 vs. #2 match is signed, then we’ll consider recognition due to abandonment, which is a form of abdication. Given that his third fight with Wilder has been rescheduled for October, that looks unlikely.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Thanks for the response. I guess we’ll see what happens between now and October. If that fight gets pushed again I’d question whether he’s an active fighter anymore.

Excellent work guys. I hope this takes off in a big way. Judging by the fans comments it should catch on quickly enough. One of the comments I read here asked about getting a boxer’s ranking read out when they are introduced to the ring before the fight. The biggest problem is the sanctioning bodies and promoters. It is unlikely that promoters who are closely aligned to a sanctioning body will allow that to happen. That said it may be worth approaching some of the top promoters asking them to do this on their shows. I think Eddie Hearn might be in favour. If they start doing it on his promotions/shows then many will follow.
I would urge all boxing fans to write/text/tweet (whatever) the top promoters asking them to do this. Pressure form the fans will hopefully pay off.

Good morning from the UK

I was checking the P4P rankings and noticed that some of the boxers have an asterisk (*). However there is nothing on page to denote what this means, can you please explain?

Keep up the good work.

Regards
Hardip

Greetings.
New to your website, makes for a great conversation starter.
I always find ratings, especially P4P are very very subjective and they will take form of what the individual compiling them likes, which is why this is a great site – they are discussed by a panel before publication much like the Ring ratings.

👍🏼 Totally agree with the majority, my talking point: personally can’t see how Lara sits above Navarrete, does one victory eclipse a finer body of work?

Hello Jaime, and thank you for your support. Mauricio Lara defeated the #2-ranked contender in the world in Josh Warrington, and that can indeed be expected to be a shortcut to the top of the rankings. Navarrete is among the busiest fighters around and we all appreciate fighters who fight, but he has yet to fight and beat a ranked contender at featherweight. Being active is one thing, beating top contenders quite another.

In your P4P, why is GGG still in the top 10 and removes Loma? GGG hasnt fought better opposition for the last 2 years. I think, TBRB is the only site now where GGG was placed in Top 10. Kindly check your list. Loma lost to Teo but he was previously number 1 and when he lost, he was removed completely? And now he’s back, better than ever – will he be able to join the list too? I think he should be.

Hi,
I appreciate what you guys do here, bringing some sense of order and clarity into the dysfunctional sport of boxing. I find your organisation to be consistently the most fair and objective rankings.

That said, in your latest P4P list Golovkin is still present. Why? What’s the reasoning behind this, because I don’t recall him fighting anyone of note since Canelo. Surely Jermell Charlo should be there instead.

Best Regards

Rohan and DJ Bianca Frost,

The P4P list is there to be critiqued. I critique it all the time, and recognize that there are a few guys getting stale on it –GGG, Usyk, and Crawford. The eye test should never be enough for any rankings system; placements should be based on merit -on what is actually achieved. As for GGG, he is down at #9 and on his way out unless he reverts to his younger form. However, many members count both Canelo losses as “good losses” and many believe he should be 1-1 with him. That is something to consider.

Lomachenko lost to Lopez, who was nowhere near Canelo at the time, and few of us believe that Lomachenko had as much of an argument as GGG did for beating a top guy. As for Jermell Charlo: that Harrison loss hurt him, though beating Castano to become jr. middleweight king later this month would certainly improve his chances of entering the P4P list.

When is the last time Luis Ortiz beat anyone relevant? He is hanging onto a top 5 contender ranking without really delivering, while Usyk is way at the bottom despite having just beaten Chisora and having beat #6 Hunter in 2017, more recently than Ortiz has beat any contender.

Usyk has yet to beat a contender at heavyweight. The Hunter win was at cruiserweight. Ortiz has beaten contenders, though not for a while. But “not for a while” is better than “has yet to.” I’ll give you this though, Ortiz is getting a bit stale up there and as those beneath him fight, look for him to be overtaken. I think Usyk is very stale at P4P though. Come September he can make you “right” and me “wrong” depending on how he competes against AJ.

How many guys has Ortiz beaten who are better than Chisora?
Thompson was ancient and in his last fight when Ortiz beat him (and Tony had previously been beat by Malik Scott), Scott was Ko’d by Chisora prior to going the distance with Ortiz. Hammer is like a lower level Chisora, losing to bigger names.

Jenning was a nice win but that was like 6 years ago and Jennings is more of a 2nd rate contender. I just think Ortiz at #5 is a bit generous considering his lack of any meaningful win for years.

Chisora and Witherspoon, both unranked, aren’t necessarily enough to cancel out King Kong’s 34 heavyweight bouts. I don’t disagree that Ortiz is stale up there, but keep in mind that movement has been stunted by Covid and heavyweights don’t fight nearly as often as they should. Ortiz will be overtaken unless he reclaims old form and accepts bolder challengers. Usyk’s bold challenge could launch him up and over Ortiz come September.

New to your website / rankings ..looks brilliant…forgive me if you said why before but I can’t see no super fly ranked any reasons ?

Hi! Just want to know if the Rosario-Lubin and Williams-Mendoza fights this weekend can still potentially disrupt the #1 and #2 rankings and downgrade the upcoming Charlo-Castano championship fight which is only a few weeks away?

Looks off if they will interrupt the #1 and #2 rank at this point.

Bruce, you shall see tomorrow evening, ET. Keep in mind, we do not seek to preserve an upcoming #1 vs. #2 if another contender deserves to disrupt it. Such a scenario has happened before in these parts.

Your site looks great but I did notice that the word “annuncio” appears to be spelled incorrectly. I saw a couple small issues like this. I thought you would like to know!

In case you wanted to fix it, in the past we’ve used services from a websites like HelloSpell.com to keep our site error-free.

You guys are the most up to date and correct boxing rankings system imo, this shows why too. RING is good too but they are slacking with removing long inactive fighters from their rankings, not as up to date.

That was a middleweight bout and not an over-the-weight bout (and it happened to late to discuss last week). Given that these are divisional rankings, we can’t remove him from a division based on a loss that occurred in a different division from which he was ranked. These things tend to correct themselves however: he exits the jr. middleweight rankings anyway due to extended inactivity in that division.

Quick question… Fury and Klitschko were removed from 1 and 2 in the rankings around November 2016 as they hadn’t fought in a year and didn’t have a fight scheduled…

… but Klitschko almost constantly had fights scheduled. He was fighting Fury for most of that time. Then Browne, then the Joshua fight was announced in December 2016. Should Klitschko have been back at Ranking 1 when he fought Joshua?

Joshua was ranked 1 by TBRB ahead of the Klitschko fight. Should he therefore have been 2?

And if both of those are true… Should the lineage have commenced there, moved to Ruiz and then come back to Joshua?

Hello Ted,

I recall us wrestling with that decision after it was made and AJ-Klitschko was announced. But we had to stand firm, even if it meant going against the grain. (When it comes to legit championships, the “grain” is usually going off into outer space anyway.) The information we had at the end of November 2016 was that Klitschko was turning down fights around that time and in our judgment, based on what we knew and could find out from insiders on the board, the right call was to remove him due to inactivity.

Thanks for the response. I’ve always been of the view that the linear title is something that is often clear in hindsight but less so in the present. For example, people make a case that Fury never lost the title while others believe he won it v Wilder. Others can make a case that there’s no way you can rank him top 2 after coming back from retirements (and drugs bans) and not having a single notable win in his ‘second career’ prior to Wilder. That would leave the title vacant.

Personally I’d say Klitschko v Joshua was closer to a concensus 1 and 2.

Whichever path you prefer, there’s doubt. And there’s only one way to erase that doubt and that’s for Joshua and Fury to fight while they’re still at the top of the division.

Let’s hope, hey.

TBRB is ace, it’s my go to every time.

Springs Toledo is the man also, his stuff on here is fine, his books even better. The rest of the team are spot on too.

Thanks for the rankings, the hard work and all the rest.

Dear board,
a few questions from me:

1.) I really like your strict rules to become a champion. However, how do you justify that the P4P list is headed by two non-champions? I mean, I totally agree with Canelo and Innoue, but still it feels weird and one could make an argument, that a true P4P king should be a true division champion as well.

2.) Was the GGG-Canleo 1 bout officially declared a robbery by the board?

3.) Do you manufacture (any kind of) physical belts which the true champs receive?

Best regards,
Eugene

Hello Eugene/Evgeny,

1. A divisional champion is not necessarily the best fighter in his division. He is not necessarily among the best fighters in the sport either. Usually they are the best in their division, because heat rises if you will, but not always. Was champion Floyd Patterson the best heavyweight in 1961? Most would say Liston was. Was champion Hugo Corro the best middleweight in early 1979? Most would say Hagler was. Leon Spinks? Hasim Rahman? Sometimes, a guy has the style to whip the sitting champion and thus takes the throne, but everyone knows he isn’t the best. Consider it a rule of thumb: the divisional champion is not necessarily the best fighter in the division.

2. No. That was a #1 vs. #2/championship bout and the robbery clause only applies to non-championship bouts where the decision against the rightful winner is so egregious it warrants ranking the official loser over the official winner. The clause also does not apply to draws. We may consider a non-championship bout a “bad draw,” however, and rank accordingly.

3. No, we do not. This is an all volunteer initiative that has zero sources of income. We point to the rightful divisional champs. We’re looking at the truth, not the glitter.

As yet there is no archived ranking for April. I really hope that this is an oversight rather than a change in policy. Other than that, I like the new website. Good work!

Thank you Chris. There are still a few glitches on the editing end that we’re working out. The official monthly rankings have not been scrapped. We instituted that to continue a tradition that goes back almost a 100 years now. Note also that the names of the divisions are as they were originally named in The Walker Law. The only “Super” is super middleweight.

Hello! The new design/layout is pretty cool! Way better than the previous one.

Just some stuffs I noticed:

The rankings of Jr. Welterweight has a weird “10” in it.

It looks like:
1
0

instead of:
10

Also, the ranking tables have no uniform alignments (column width and whatnot).

Suggestions: Not sure if it’s feasible but I think it would be nice to have a feature which will show who, when, result and which weight did a boxer last fought when the mouse cursor is hovered to a boxer’s name in the rankings. And if the championship is vacant (open), when hovered, it will show the one currently enclosed in a parenthesis, just to make the rankings look more neat and uniform.

Yeah, it’s mostly UI suggestions instead of boxing stuffs this time.

The Tech is looking at it now. Thanks for the heads-up. I think we’re about maxed out in terms of what we can do as volunteers with a free Tech who is too generous with his time as it is. It would never end if we started adding too many bells and whistles!

Nice upgrade! No complaints from me.

I think that the current Rankings page should also show the last match of each boxer.

And of course I’d love you to make women’s boxing rankings.

Greetings from Uruguay!

Greetings to you and Uruguay. The record-keepers will consider your idea about including the last match of each contender. We’ve had requests over the years to include women’s boxing rankings and MMA rankings as well but as volunteers with many other things going on (like making a living!), we’re pretty much extended as much as we can be already. In addition, I don’t believe that most of our board members monitor women’s boxing nearly as closely. (And for that matter, even less follow MMA).

We appreciate your kind words about our upgrade!

I’m liking the new layout as well. maybe you can add a small flagicons for the fighters. just for the color. also I’m always been interested in prospects. maybe there can be like an additional 2-3 names per weight class like Notable Prospects looking to get in top10. just an idea. they dont have to be in order like ranked 11, 12, 13 or anything. just a few names in a list.

Thank you DJ. Not bad for an operation with no purse! Stewart Howe is a stand-up guy. As for Rigondeaux, he still claims the so-called lineal championship at jr. feather. However, that only means he was the last legitimate champ there, and does not necessarily mean he is the rightful champ indefinitely. We will be reaching out to him soon, as in very soon, to see what his intentions are. If he is staying at bantam, we’ll consider his throne abdicated.

I refer to tbrb for the rankings. But the only area where i fear it lacks influencential data, ducking. When a fighter is being avoided by those above him, which is increasingly a bigger and bigger problem, i feel the rankings should reflect that. Win and losses against which opponents should dominate, then ducking should then factor in.

Eugene, I understand the sentiment and proposed early on that members factor that in when considering the P4P List. We cannot, however, factor it into the divisional rankings. We can only rank fighters based on what they do, not on what they should do or would do if they could. Divisional rankings must be merit-based but they shouldn’t be speculative. Speculating is fun for all-time hypothetical match-ups but it would be ruinous here.

Like any true, knowledgeable boxing fan I hate the Aphabelt club — IBF, WBC, WBA, NABF, etc. But when are we going to start hearing your rankings announced before one, or two, of your top-ranked guys step into a ring? Seems there needs to be a ‘PR’ push to get you guys established, and start removing the “legitimacy” from these fraudulent entities.

We rely on you and your friends for that, Patrick. We are strictly volunteer and have no budget, which means we’ll never sell out and never become compromised but also means we can’t afford an ad in a high school newspaper, never mind the New York Times.

I am new to your ranking system and was wondering why some of your championship titles are vacant and been for a long time (one of them since 1987). How can such a long vacancy ever be filled? Thanks.

Greetings Mr. Fernandez and welcome to the land of common sense. Keep in mind, that’s why we exist: for clarity and common sense. We are not out for profit and have nothing to sell. We do not have the goal of “filling championships,” that’s precisely the goal of the profit-driven WTF organizations. To be sure, we would love nothing more than to see the championships filled, but we won’t defy common sense to force it. If a divisional throne is open, then only the top two can contend for it. Not #3, or #4, or #5, or in the case of the WTF organizations, the #9 or the #29. The top two are the recognized best in the division. They compete. That’s it.

The fact that five divisions haven’t had a legitimate champion in over 10 year and 2 of those since the last century serves to spotlight the disaster that is the current model. You can go right to the rankings and see what has to happen for the open championships to finally see an overdue successor: #1 vs #2. The best competing against the best. That’s what the idea of sport is all about.

When boxing was rational, it was a surprise to see an open championship and even then, it was for a brief time. Why is that? Because the contenders didn’t have the option of calling themselves “world champions” and having commentators and writers doing the same simply because a cadre of tin-can racketeers say so and had some stooge holding up a WBS belt. All of the contenders knew where to aim for -the top of the heap, the singular champion.

It’s been a few months since Callum Smith lost to Canelo Alvarez. When are y’all gonna update his record to 27-1?

Hello from England.
I applaud your ratings which are essential as the world boxing picture is more muddled now than ever before.

On the subject of successions, I agree with Ring magazine with “stripping” a fighter if he defends his linear title against nobodies or inferior alphabet challengers. For example the flyweight division: Canto beat Oguma which is fair enough as they were No 1 & 2 at that time. But Canto, and this is the problem, defended his title against WBC challengers and the WBA champ was frozen out. This went on from 1976 to 2016!! Very good fighters like Santos Lacier, Fidel Bassa etc never got a shot because the linear title was the WBC title. In my opinion, a linear champ should defend his title against a top 10 fighter in the independant rankings. If, for 18 months, he does not, then his title should be declared vacant.

Adrian,

I’m with you! In spirit, but not in practice. Not yet anyway. I’d encourage you to take a look at the champions throughout boxing history and consider how many of them had defenses against walk-overs and non-threats. You can go all the way back to the beginning -to 1920- and see Dempsey defending his title against Bill Brennan, whom Harry Greb had thrashed 4 times in 1919. In ’57, Joe Brown beat unrated Joey Lopes in a title defense and Floyd Patterson defended his crown against Pete Rademacher. Rademacher wasn’t ranked either–because it was his pro debut. You gonna strip two champions that year? If so, those segments of the two successions that gave us Ortiz and Duran and Liston and Ali are out the window.

Stripping champions is an ugly business and should be rare. There are a lot of Cantos in boxing history, but until the sport has some kind of centralized authority that isn’t bought and paid for, we should use other methods short of stripping what was earned. It doesn’t always have to be this way: Let’s say that the powers-that-be in the sport had an epiphany and decided to follow the Transnational Rankings alone. Using these rankings -uncompromised and authoritative as they are, all concerned then agreed to establish a universal expectation that said, “if a divisional champion fails to defend his crown against a top 10 fighter within 12/16/18 months then the throne would be declared open. Said throne can only be filled after a contest between #1 and #2…” Well, that’d be great for the sport, wouldn’t it. But we’re simply not there yet and to pretend we are would invite the chaos that the WBS gangs thrive from.

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